[00:00:20] Sebastian: Welcome to a very special episode of the Insightful Connections podcast. Our guest today is Pam Goldfarb Liss. Pam is president-bigbrain at LitBrains! Igniting Ideas Inc., and the founder-superfriend trainer at Mission Kid Possible, an online library of kid-sized workshops and live training courses for moderators who want to work with kids and teens. Pam, just, I want to say before I continue, I really love, I think you have a penchant for coming up with great job titles for yourself. Big Brain is one. I wish it wasn't taken. I'd apply it to myself. After running Lit Brains for over 30 years and spending over a decade perfecting the Riva course on moderating with kids and teens, Pam founded Mission Kid Possible to further share her expertise on moderating with kids. Prior to founding Lit Brains, Pam held a variety of agency-side roles and cultivated her expertise moderating with kids for numerous leading brands. Pam, thank you so much for being on the show today.

[00:01:15] Pam: Oh, I'm so excited, Sebastian. I love that you're doing this.

[00:01:18] Sebastian: So, first question, how did you end up here? How did you find your way to insights, and what does that story say about you as a person?

[00:01:26] Pam: I think it's my energy. Honestly, if you can't tell from all of this, all my naming and my whoo-hoo-hoo, I think everybody, when they meet me, gets my energy. I was in advertising and wasn't always so good at the sales part of advertising as an account executive slash account supervisor, but everybody wanted me inside of their brainstorming sessions or focus groups and all that stuff. And then I started to get inside of an ad agency. It's now part of McCann Erickson, but it was called Campbell Methune. I got my chance to roll up my sleeves and moderate, and that was it. I was in love. And I had a little bit of time in Chicago doing some PR, but then they used me in the same way to do some focus groups and all that kind of stuff, and then came back, worked for a company where I oversaw the communications that was part of that internet boom. People during the internet boom didn't always act so nice to people, but I always loved having focus groups and meeting with respondents. And eventually, I started doing the focus groups myself and loved it, and loved whenever I got to hire a focus group moderator there. It was really fun. And then I decided to go out on my own, and that's what I wanted to do. So I made the segue, got myself trained at Riva, and that was it. I fell in love with Riva, and I fell in love with the whole industry, and got involved in QRCA because of Jeff Wachowski. And man, the community just embraced everything. And then started specializing in kids and teens, but I also do every single respondent possible, B2B, healthcare. I do adults, seniors, but I really have a special penchant for kids always. Maybe it's just because I am a kid myself.

[00:03:11] Sebastian: Pam, what gave you that push to strike out on your own?

[00:03:14] Pam: You know, it's funny, Sebastian. I think it was the fact that I always felt that I could do it. I love the idea of calling my own shots and being able to go after the kind of clients that I want to work for. And the thing that's nice about working for yourself is that the people that hire you again are the people that really like you. And then when you're working with people that really like you, you generally really like them. And it's a win-win. So, I love that equation because the people who don't like you, they don't hire you again. And that's okay. It's the beauty of working for yourself.

[00:03:48] Sebastian: So, Pam, you obviously have developed a bit of a specialty in dealing with kids and teens. I think I mentioned in your intro the work that you've done on Riva's programming in that space and moderating in that space. What drew you to that particular audience and that particular niche within moderating? And what keeps you sort of animated about it?

[00:04:13] Pam: The connection with Riva is really, it was a course that I developed with Naomi Henderson. And then Naomi went to sort of, you know, during COVID, she kind of pared down and, you know, her heirs now have sort of a different approach. I took it, she allowed me to take it in-house. That's what Mission Kid Possible is, is basically the work that I did with Riva. And then now I've sort of expanded it. So, just to clarify, my Riva connection was because Naomi was just so kind and helped me develop that course. So, now the course is sort of all on Mission Kid Possible. But as far as, and Sebastian, can you repeat the question? I'm sorry.

[00:04:48] Sebastian: Yeah, no worries. What got you into moderating with kids?

[00:04:52] Pam: So, you know, it's funny because when I worked at Campbell Methune with the McCann Erickson agency, they started creating, it was called KidCom. And they had a lot of kids products and kids focus, like, you know, Sesame Street clothing inside of Kmart. If you remember Kmart, it was a long time ago, maybe before your time. They had lunch makers that was a really cool thing from Armour Swift Eckridge, these little lunch kits. They had a bunch of fun products that kind of started me thinking, woo, kids. And then I started to, that's where I actually started moderating because it was sort of this offshoot of the agency. And they needed somebody who wasn't devoted to another client. And I was allowed, I had a little more flexibility. They took a chance on me and I took a chance on them. And that was the beginning of my love for kids. And I've done work for Coke. When I was there, I did work for a bunch of really, Burger King, a bunch of really fun projects. Campbell Methune allowed me to do that, which was really fun. I was there for four years. It was great.

[00:05:54] Sebastian: Was there a gap you saw in the way that research with kids was being conducted at the time you got into it?

[00:06:01] Pam: Yes. So when I started working on my own is when I really saw the biggest people would call me because they knew that I had done work with kids on how to do things. And there was one woman who I love dearly, a fellow QRCA member who called me, she was doing work with Hispanic kids for a very big brand. And she fed them sugar before going into a group where they had to watch different TV shows. And you don't do that. You don't put them anywhere close to sugar when you want them. And also, they sit down and many times there's a lot of things to consider. And she was the first one for me to go. My little light bulb went up. You know, I have some tricks up my sleeve that I could probably help other people besides this lovely QRCA member. Then I sort of decided to build this course and build more things, you know, with my expertise, because it feels like at that point, I had about 15-20 years of experience with kids. That was in the aughts. And I started in the 90s with kids. And so I thought it was it was time to sort of develop a course and help people. And I saw a number of people doing things that really scared me, actually, ethically. In particular, one person, this was a client of mine, was not willing to be transparent about who the sponsor was, which happens, that's okay. But they didn't even want to say what the subject matter was. And it was about sex. I just I felt that we needed to be transparent. And I think setting rules about transparency with kids and being clear about what's going to be said to your kid, or, you know, sort of discussed with your kid rather, is a really important thing, because you're putting very vulnerable kids in, you know, a discussion that they may not either be familiar, which they're not gonna be productive, that'll be scary for them. Or, you know, their parents are not gonna approve, both of which are not, it's just not okay. And we as as researchers need to be much more upfront about that. So those were kind of some of the formula of why I decided to start, you know, creating some sort of course so that people understood why in the context of doing these things. And it's really helped a lot. I think now I think by rule, I have not come across in the past 10 or 15 years, anybody being that adamant about not being transparent. And that was, I mean, it was a while ago. So it does make me feel good that I feel like, you know, my starting this was was a good move.

[00:08:34] Sebastian: And when we talk about that transparency, just for the benefit of our audience, that that transparency is towards the parents, right, that are ultimately, you know, giving permission for their kids to participate in the research. Is that right?

[00:08:47] Pam: Yes. And I think being clear in the recruiting screener is really important about what it's going to be discussed so that the parents know, and also so the parents can prepare the kids. Obviously, you have to guide that about how much you want the kids to be prepared out, you don't want them to be biased. But I think there's a good way of being transparent so that the parents feel good about what's going to be discussed and also are able to navigate whether or not they want their kids to do that. I mean, if you're going to show the kids a rated PG film, you should also probably tell them, you know, what's going to be screened before you send it, because you're going to have some upset parents if they only show G rated films, too. So it's really important to be to be clear about that. And that has happened to me before I've actually had to put the rulebook down and say, we need to tell them that this is rated PG. Some kids may not be allowed to do this, to watch this, so that that's when you tell them. And it's really important. Parents are really involved. And you kind of want that you want the parents to be your partner. That's a major, major role in everything that I teach and everything that I do.

[00:09:56] Sebastian: That's a really good, you know, takeaway. And I think it's all about respecting the boundaries that exist within the parental relationship, right? About what, you know, their children are permitted to do and making sure that the research falls within that, right? Because that's sort of a unique concern when we're dealing with minors in research. I want to change gears slightly. So just before we started this conversation we're having now, you told me that part of your moderating playbook with kids is that you jump at the start of the focus group, right? Or whatever it is, focus group interview, I'm not sure. Tell me about that.

[00:10:30] Pam: Something I teach all the time and read about too, if you see the kids getting a little antsy, you yourself jump up, we have like a shake, a shake-a-thon and shake it all out, shake all our energy out. I actually took that from a bunch of teachers. Because if you notice a good teacher, kindergarten, first, second, third, the younger kids especially, will do the same thing. A good teacher will see if the kids are getting really tired and maybe low energy, she just jumps it up a notch and they do a little dance to get out all the energy and then they go back. And kids are very used to that in the classroom as well. So it is something I stole from the classroom. But it's really, it's a fun little trick. I like doing it.

[00:11:11] Sebastian: What are some of the other tactics that you think moderators can take into moderating with children to elevate the quality of the research that they're doing?

[00:11:20] Pam: Well, I think 90% of what you do is getting the screener correct so that you are getting the right kids in the room. So you probably know that very well, Sebastian. Amen. And I think with screeners, it's at least two articulation questions. One of which now since AI has come about, I actually request is a video because I'm sure you've all seen it. There's always some parent that tries to pretend that they have a kid or non-parent tries to pretend that they have a kid and uses AI. It happened to me, unfortunately, in a recent study. Yeah, last spring. I think, I mean, it's really important that the kid is articulate and it just takes one really, it's not hard. It's just a simple question. Things like, what do you think would be a great cookie recipe? Anything goes. And kids love that. They love cookies. They love talking about what should be inside of cookies. And they love being creative. And that's the kid I want, the kid that sort of can talk extemporaneously. That's a great articulation question. And then a video question that would have that kind of fun. That's one of the things that gets you 90% of the way. And then the other thing that I like doing is making sure that they know an agenda. So important that they know when they're coming in. I usually give them also a pre-work with kids because kids like to be prepared. A really important thing that they know what the subject matter is. Again, the transparency, but also that they are ready with an answer for the introduction. You're not catching them off guard. And then that actually mirrors the kind of productive focus group that you want, which is great. So if I can have the formula of a great screener, that's got two good articulation questions, one text, one video, and then have a good agenda that I lay out that they are very clear with what's going to happen. And then also have some pre-work. I think that's a great, great formula for a productive focus group. The other thing that I try to get, I don't always get, is keeping a focus group to four. Four is a really good number. You recruit for four. If three come, that's great because three is perfect with kids, triads. But if four, you take them because you always take all the kids that show. But anything bigger than that becomes a little less manageable with kids, even as old as high schoolers. I like to have no more than four in a group, four to three.

[00:13:47] Sebastian: Yeah, just as a parent myself, I think kids do so much better when they know what to expect from anything in life. And the more you can walk through it step by step, the more they're ready, and they understand, and they're able to contribute. So I completely recognize that. The other thing that I found interesting, you almost answered a question before I asked it, which is, I'm usually on the side of sending the kids somewhere. I'm not necessarily there where they arrive. In fact, I never am. I'm not the moderator. And I was just thinking, gosh, how does she handle over-recruits? Because if you tell a kid, hey, thanks for showing up, you're not coming in, they're going to start crying, man. That's tough for kids.

[00:14:35] Pam: Not okay. I do, every now and then, have a very strongly requested over-recruit from a client. And if that happens where I have to have more than four in the room, more than four recruited for four, which every now and then does, I always have a lobby questionnaire that's sort of this questionnaire that kids get paid for to do. We get a little extra information that we didn't necessarily need. It's always helpful. And they get their money, and they feel good about it. Every now and then, it happens that you have to do that kind of over-recruit. I don't like it when it's too much for the focus group room. But the kid that stays out has something. And that's, yeah, exactly. It's all about getting a chance to help. They want to be there. That's why they came. I mean, nine times out of 10. I had one kid once, literally in my 30 years of moderating, say to me that they were glad that they weren't going to be in the focus group. And I was just shocked. I was like, I think that was an evil thing. I don't think that was real. It never happens. They always want to participate.

[00:15:40] Sebastian: Pam, it's 309. And I'm wanting to go home right now and just go hug my children. You're getting me on this emotional topic. All right. So another question for you, just to zoom out, because I know you don't do all your work with children, right? What are some general lessons for dealing with people? Maybe not kids, right? But getting the best insights out of people that you think you've sort of learned or distilled from your work with children?

[00:16:08] Pam: I think transparency is a really big thing. I mean, we were all kids once, and we all have to know what's coming, right? And I think that's the biggest thing that working with kids has taught me is respondents, if they know where you're going, are really, really helpful guides. And if you can let them guide you, you get the ahas that you need. If you don't give any map to where you're trying to go to, they can't help you. They don't know where you're going. When you have a really good guide that clearly outlines that, that you can say, this is what we're trying to get up front. This is what we're trying to get to. They'll take you there. They always do. You don't have to be like, you know, tell them everything. But if you give them where you're going, they'll always get you there. I love that because adults, kids, we're all the same.

[00:17:04] Sebastian: Let's question for you. What keeps you motivated?

[00:17:07] Pam: That's a good question right now. I think, you know, it's, I love, it's, you know, what we do is sort of like a puzzle, right? And I love designing the right guide, the right methodology for my clients' learning objectives. I love when a client is very clear about their learning objectives and I can design this really creative guide that gets them incredible insights because it's a puzzle, right? You want to make sure that you get them the answer to the puzzle, whether it's Sudoku, it's like some form of Sudoku or fun. It's fun for me to create a really good conversation. And I love sort of unraveling and getting us there, creating the right way to get there.

[00:17:56] Sebastian: Yeah.

[00:17:57] Sebastian: Thanks so much for being on the show today.

[00:17:59] Pam: It was fun. Thanks, Sebastian.

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