Sebastian (00:02):

You are listening to the Insightful Connections podcast. Our guest today is Layla Shea. Layla is the founder and chief Insight officer at Upwords. Since 2008, Layla, and her team at Upwords have been delivering insights that inspire strategy, innovation, communication, and experiences. What sets them apart is their ability to craft compelling narratives that go beyond data, stories that Spark connection, unlock understanding, and ultimately drive business growth. Prior to founding Upwords, Layla was a director at Sklar, Wilton and Associates, a group marketing manager at the Minute Maid Company Canada and a product manager at SC Johnson. Layla, thanks so much for being on the show today.

Layla (00:39):

Thank you.

Sebastian (1:01):

So, I'd like to start off with this sort of general context setting question and what I'd love to start by understanding more about you and your professional journey is how you originally got into market research and how that sort of accounts for where you've gone since.

Layla (01:17):

Yeah, that's great. You know, a lot of people say they stumble into marketing research and it's something that I didn't really know as a career. I started my career in marketing. I started at SC Johnson in the Canadian office and then Coca-Cola working at the Minute Maid company and I started getting exposed to Consumer Insights more when I was working at Minute Maid of managing both the Minute Maid brand and innovation. And while I was in that role there was a lot of interesting stuff, especially in the innovation role, a lot of interesting stuff that was connected to consumer Insights. And so I could see how consumer insights drove business decisions while working in these big companies. You know, I was really excited when I first got hired in these big companies thinking this is the gold standard of marketing. And there was a little bit, and I hope I can say this, a little bit of disillusion after working there for a while because I felt like there was a lot of bureaucracy and focus on process.

Layla (02:11):

And so the time that I was there, there were a lot of changes both at Coca-Cola head office and then Minute Maid both in the US and in Canada. And so it seemed like we had all these great ideas and things that relate to Consumer Insights, but I couldn't push anything forward because there was so much process, oh, change your p and l, you know, we've got a new CEO in the us, you gotta change your p and l so that or your marketing plan so that it's in this format. And everything was process driven and I was like, I just wanna move forward and act on these great insights. And while I was there I got introduced to Sklar, Wilton and Associates. They were managing our consumer insights for us and every time I'd sit down and have a meeting with them, I came out and I felt inspired.

Layla (02:55):

I was like, this is so exciting. I love hearing about the consumer and what they do and I just really wanna act on this. And so after going through a few rounds of that and feeling frustrated with the process and the bureaucracy, I said, why don't I jump ship and work where my heart is going and follow insights and work more deeply in consumer insights. So I ended up working at Sklar Wilton and spending almost a decade there and they've evolved a bit since then. But we were really insight strategists almost like we were very connected with marketing teams and C-suites in helping them understand how the voice of the consumer can move their business forward. And we were not directly doing the research at the time that I started working there. We were hiring others to do the research so we were just acting as the consumer insights department.

Layla (03:47):

And so that's where I really got my chops around research. But using research for strategy, not just research for the sake of research. Right. And I didn't even think at that point that I'd ever wanna work in a research company. I love that strategy role and the using research to help drive businesses but didn't think I'd wanna be actually doing it. Well, after working there for a number of years, I started doing more facilitation. So strategic planning, doing innovation workshops and that kind of thing. And then I started looking at focus groups and thinking, well if I can do facilitation, I'm sure I could run a focus group, right? It's a similar skillset. If anything it's almost easier because your participants don't have a vested interest in the outcome. Of course they were super supportive. I got trained at the Riva Institute and started doing some projects for some of their clients and that's where it just lit a spark I absolutely loved. And again, I didn't ever think that I would wanna be in that place, but it lit a spark in me and it was something that I just had a real passion for.

Sebastian (04:54):

Do you remember what your first focus group was on?

Layla (04:56):

I think it was something related to meat. I was working on the Maple Leaf Foods account, <laugh>.

Sebastian (05:10):

Nice, nice. So from there, finding research within Sklar Wilton as a, a function that really drew you that you were excited about, how did you eventually take the journey a step further to starting Upwords?

Layla (05:23):

I was so happy working at Sklar Wilton. I didn't think I'd ever wanna leave. But then you have a couple kids and the rat race in the city starts getting a little much. And so, after my second daughter was born this was back in 2008, my husband and I were just saying: I think we're done with Toronto. We need to change our lifestyle. We were starting to implode. You had a nanny raising the kids and he's running his business. He was a custom home builder and I was trying to fit in work around raising the two kids and it just wasn't working. And so on a Mexican vacation walking along the beach, we said let's just find another place to live where we can reinvent ourselves. And we both always wanted to live out west and we thought maybe the grass will be a bit greener. This was like on one of those horrible winters that just went on forever in Toronto and which I think you might be having this year.

Sebastian (06:18):

We're in Ottawa. My co-founder's in Toronto, he's dealing with it. I get the - sort of - after effects.

Layla (06:24):

Right? So we weren't enjoying the city anymore, we certainly didn't enjoy the weather and we were looking out west and we said, you know what? I think we might really enjoy living there and raising the kids out west. And so we just put a pin on the map and landed in Victoria. This was 2008. And back then working virtually was not a plan. If it was an option, I probably still would be working for Sklar Wilton because I really felt they were like family and I loved working there so much and it, it had nothing to do with leaving the job or that kind of thing, but it was just a lifestyle decision. And so with tears in my eyes, I let Luke and Charlie were the main founders and the main partners at the time and I let them know that we'd made a decision and we're moving.

Layla (07:11):

And it was in conversations, it was actually Luke Sklar that said nobody in Canada's doing online qualitative research. She said, you know how to do qual really well. She said, I think there's this gap in the marketplace, why don't you go out there and figure it out? And so that was again that spark of “hey, maybe I can do something.” So in the beginning days they started sending me projects. So it came from that safety net. You know when you go out on your own, it's always like “where's that project gonna come from?” Well for me it was my former colleagues and my friends at Sklar that were sending me my first projects. So that was really the seed of how Upwords began. It didn't have the name at the time. Mine was sort of connected with Sklar. And then as my capacity grew and my interest grew, came up with the branding the name and started branching out. So that's sort of the beginnings.

Sebastian (08:05):

I'm curious 'cause you touched on the branding and the name and I think that's an interesting thread to pull on is where does the name come from and what's the significance of Upwords for you?

Layla (08:14):

My husband's kind of a very creative person and I said to him, I need a name for this. I don't want it to be tied to me because at some point in the future it might grow a little bit bigger. And so we were brainstorming around brand names and he said, well tell me what is it? What is the company? I said, well, we're talking to people, we're using their words and we're taking that and transforming it into something that's gonna help businesses grow and move upwards. He said Upwords. Call it Upwords. Of course <laugh>. I love it.

Sebastian (08:47):

I love it too. I think it's really interesting you describe yourself as the founder and chief insight officer at Upwords and I wonder what's the significance of that title and why Chief Insight Officer instead of CEO President?

Layla (09:02):

Yeah, that's a great question and thank you for asking it. So we're really obsessed with insights and if you look on our landing page, it's about insights that inspire. We don't think about the tools to get there. It's not about it's qualitative research or it's quantitative research. It's how are we gonna get those insights that are gonna inspire our clients and ultimately make decisions that'll help move their business Upwords. And so you know, it's this obsession with insights and truly understanding. Like I think a lot of people who haven't worked in business and who have only worked in research throughout their career don't always think about insights. They think about data and they think about organizing the data. But when you turn it into something that is, for us, it's this obsession with what's the insight? We may have asked 10 questions and there's one that got us the insight. Well that's what we're leading with. And so it's turning the data into narratives that'll become insights that help our clients. So the title that I chose reflects our internal obsession with insights and everyone else within the organization. We have VP of Insights, we have manager of insights, we're organized around insights 'cause that's what we are ultimately delivering.

Sebastian (10:15):

That's so interesting. I think there's a, a real distinction between a market research analyst is a really common job title, but we're focused on outcomes rather than process, right? So let's take that a step further. Well that's an insight, not necessarily market research is what we're here for. So Upwords has a annual initiative called a Project Uplift where you partner with a nonprofit organization and you do pro bono research for them. We're gonna talk a little bit about what you guys did this year, but before we get into that, I'm a little curious like how that initiative evolved and what was sort of the spark, if you will for that.

Layla (10:50):

We have these quarterly team building sessions. So just to be clear, we've done one project uplift, but we're planning to have it a regular occurrence. So we were in this team building session and one of the activities I did with my team was to ask them to describe their dream project. So they had a few minutes to think about it. Everybody presented back and it was so interesting to hear about how there was this common thread in so many of their dream projects was very altruistic. They wanted to do good, they wanted to feel like they had an impact. And like within the social space, and we look at our list of clients, that wasn't who we necessarily were always working with. We might be trying to sell more candy or more beer or something like that. And so we said, okay, how can we make these dream projects a reality?

Layla (11:40):

We certainly have some amazing clients in the not-for-profit space and we do feel good about a lot of the work we do, but we just said, let's create this dream project. And so together, as part of this team building session, we said, how might we create a project where we can give back and do good and do the work that we all really are dreaming about doing? And so that was, again, I'll talk about sparks. That was the spark for Project Uplift. And Uplift goes with our name Upwords. We call ourselves Team Up. So we said let's call it Project Uplift. And the way it functions is that we put a call out to, which is sort of through our networks on LinkedIn. We said over the next month, if you're a not-for-profit, fill out this really simple questionnaire and tell us why you should be the benefactor of Project Uplift.

Layla (12:34):

And so we have some of the most amazing submissions and it was such a hard choice for us to choose which one to go with. But ultimately it was actually quite a unanimous decision that Children of the Streets should be our first project. Children of the Streets is an organization that is working tirelessly to help reduce human trafficking and sexual exploitation of children and youth online. They're a BC-based organization and they're trying to move their mandate throughout BC and maybe even further than that. And we thought, you know, this project can really, really help with their cause and they weren't an organization that would have the funding to be able to work with us normally. So yeah.

Sebastian (13:20):

I'm curious like how the initiative with Children of the Street got started. What were the areas that they asked you to dive into? What was sort of the role of the research that you guys performed for them and what did the beginning of that process look like for you guys?

Layla (13:35):

So it was in the brief that they submitted to us that they do a lot of work already in schools and BC with students themselves, like with teenagers and teachers. But they had never tapped into parents. And they know that in order to create awareness with teens that there has to be a safe space at home where they can talk to their parents, have important conversations, have those awkward conversations about what's going on online. And so they wanted research to help understand what do parents think, what do they know, what conversations are they having, what are the barriers to having these important conversations really about sexual exploitation and the risks online and what tools do they need so that Children of the Street can ultimately put the right toolkit together so that parents feel empowered to have those conversations.

Sebastian (14:28):

And maybe I should have asked this question earlier, but just for the sake of folks who are listening, when we talk about sexual exploitation of children online, what sort of things are we talking about?

Layla (14:38):

So it might be send me a nude picture, whether it's somebody they know or somebody who has slipped into their dms and they think it's a friend or anything that they can then turn around and exploit the child with. There have been some very famous cases where this has happened and children unfortunately are taking their own lives because of the ramifications of sending something that they shouldn't have sent.

Sebastian (15:05):

In terms of the methodology, if you will, for this project, how did you guys set out to do this research for Children of the Street?

Layla (15:11):

As we always do, we start off with an internal brainstorming session and we talked about the different targets that would provide the insights that we needed and we came up with this iterative three phased approach. So we started off with, we wanted to talk to parents who were already having these conversations. So we started with an online focus group with parents who, as they said, we're already having these conversations with our kids to understand where are they getting their information, how do they start the conversation, how do they keep it going, what are they doing? What's working, what isn't working? Then the next phase was to talk to parents who were not having the conversations for that we chose an online discussion board 'cause we thought it might give them a little more privacy. We do a lot of work with online discussion boards with sensitive topics.

Layla (16:01):

And so we feel pretty confident in our abilities to create, we use what we call activity-based conversations. It's a method that is proprietary to Upwords where we create interesting tasks and activities so that participants feel like you're not just asking dry questions, we're getting really deep and under the surface. So the online discussion board, there was a combination of we ask them to upload video responses, picture responses, text responses to help us understand again, what do they think is going on in their kids' lives, when do they think conversation should happen? What are the barriers to having these conversations? And then we showed them some resources that were available through Children of the Street and got their feedback. 'cause Ultimately we wanna make those resources better. So that was phase two. Within that second phase, at the end of it, we told half of the parents, well, we told everybody we want you to come back for another phase.

Layla (16:54):

And they could decide, depending on their comfort level, if that next phase would be a mini focus group online or a one-on-one conversation. We thought some of them might wanna be with other parents who have been through this and hear about their experience and others might say, you know what? I'm not comfortable with these conversations. I'd rather just do it as a one-on-one. And so half of the group of parents, we said, for your next phase, we want you to have this conversation with your kids. So initiate a conversation about sexual exploitation, try out some of these tools, see how it goes. The other half, we didn't tell them anything and we said, okay, let's see what happens. So in phase three, we brought them back and it was so interesting because even those we told, we want you to have the conversation, the majority of them didn't because they still felt it's awkward, it didn't feel natural, I didn't have the right opportunity. And that was so interesting and so insightful to us because even with the right resources, they still were these barriers. So we were able to dig even deeper in that final phase to really hone in on what do they need.

Sebastian (18:09):

Yeah, I can see that as well. Like as a parent of a kid who's getting older, she's seven. I can see how in many ways going about my day-to-day life, I would probably think, oh, it's premature for these conversations that there's a lot of cognitive barriers there for me to having these early conversations around safety online and things of that nature. So you know, that's interesting that you found that so strongly in the research that even when you told the participants to go ahead and do this, those barriers were still there. What did you guys uncover in terms of ways to navigate or move past those barriers for parents?

Layla (18:45):

Yeah, so they need things that they can share really kind of nonchalantly. I know with my daughters, I'm always sharing little things on Instagram, oh, here's a cute puppy. Or look at this little thing. And sometimes it's things that are a little more meaningful. And so being able to have stories that these things happen and start the conversation with, if there's a little news article or something that happened to just sit your kid down and say, have you heard of this happening to anybody? Is this something you've ever heard of? So having those little really informal moments and snippets of information to share so that you're not really going deep, but you're creating a little bit of an awareness and then there's an openness with your child. The other thing was because there were things happening in schools, like there were educational forums happening through Children of the Street.

Layla (19:38):

They were going into all the schools. We said that's a perfect time. When if the parents, you know from the school that the kid had an assembly where they were talking about this and creating awareness, there needs to be something at that moment that comes home for the parents so you can continue the conversation. So it's that creating that whole loop. The messages need to be tailored to the very specific age group. So someone who's seven years old, you need a very different message than a kid that is like, my youngest is 17 now, and the conversations we're having are very different than when they got their first phone. But there's also, there are these critical moments, and for some of the parents in our thing, they felt like they had missed those moments. So children on the street is thinking about, okay, when a kid first goes online, that's an opportunity to talk to them.

Layla (20:30):

When they get their first phone or first phone with data, there are these critical moments that parents can call it contract with their child. And then when they have a little more access. So one of the insights that we had, we have this chart that as the age of the child goes up, they have more exposure and much greater risk, but the parents feel like the kids know better and the kids, they're smart kids, this isn't gonna happen to them. There's this whole, this would never happen to my kid thing going on. And so they need to know that it can happen to any kid, it can happen to the smart kid, it can happen to anyone. There's not one gender that it doesn't happen to. Like it actually can happen to anybody.

Sebastian (21:18):

I love that idea of leveraging those moments where children find more autonomy online and I guess through another lens, maybe more risk, but also use those moments as times to say, Hey, here's a conversation that accompanies this step. Right. Yeah, that's such an interesting finding. So next question I wanted to ask you was about the impact or the way that your research has moved up through Children of the Street. How has your research impacted them and what are some things that we should all take away from it?

Layla (21:44):

You know, when they started the project, they thought they might get some tactical things to help them just adjust their website or just help them understand and they came away. The one quote I'll always remember, they're like, you basically wrote our five year strategy for parents through this project. So I mean, that's the biggest accolade that we can get is knowing that our research is very strategic and they're using it not just for low hanging fruit, short term wins, but this is creating a real strategic lens for them to use over the long term. It's still very recent. So what are the direct things that they're doing? Well, they're starting to change the resources online. I'm sure as they're going into schools, they're ensuring that there's that link to the parents to make sure that the parents know that these things are happening in the schools so that they can have those moments to talk to their kids. And we'll be seeing over the next few years, we have lots of recommendations around how they can use social media effectively. But this is an organization that's fully funded by donations, and so for them to move a lot of these things forward, they have to wait until they have money in their budget to move them forward. But at least they have the foundation and they have the insights that they need to do what they have to do.

Sebastian (23:03):

Thanks so much for sharing today, Layla. A question for you. If folks wanna know more about Upwords, where should they go?

Layla (23:09):

They should go to our website Upwords.ca

Sebastian (23:12):

So much for being on the show today.

Layla (23:13):

Thank you.